Thursday, December 20, 2012

Does "Nutritional Ketosis" Require 85% Fat?

For some if you bring calories into the discussion of low-carb diets, you're pontificating, unless of course you're not.

"...of course, if one eats too much fat during that low-carb diet, you're not going to lose weight; there are differences in metabolism, but calories count in the process of eating a low-carb diet."
-Steve Phinney
August 25, 2012, Ask the Low Carb Experts Podcast

I start with Dr. Phinney since he's co-author of The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, and The New Atkins For You.

A funny thing happens when you read all three books - you find they all explain the role of calories in a low-carb diet.  


Imagine that.

In The New Atkins for You we find, "Don't count calories, although we ask you to use common sense.  In the past, some individuals made the mistake of thinking they could stuff themselves with protein and fat and still lose weight.  If the pounds are falling off, forget about calories.  But if the scale won't budge or it seems to be taking you forever to lose, you might want to do a reality check, caloriewise."

In The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living we find, "The definition of 'maintenance' is that your daily energy intake equals your daily expenditure"

Additionally there is, "In order to judge how best to formulate the mix of macro-nutrients in a low-carb diet, it is helpful to visualize how your total energy intake will change from induction to maintenance.  As indicated in the graph on the next page, a typical male with a BMI of 34 might start out eating 1600 kcal in induction while his body burns 3200 kcal per day (thus the weight loss).  But after losing 50 pounds to a BMI of 27, his daily energy intake will need to increase substantially to eventually maintain him stable at that reduced weight."

In The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, calories aren't the focus per se; rather formulating a ketogenic macronutrient mix for performance is detailed with two key features - that initially carbohydrate intake, to keto-adapt, should be less than 50g carbohydrate each day, and that once adapted one may remain keto-adapted with up to with up to 100g of carbohydrate each day; and that protein intake should be between 0.6g and 1.0g per pound of lean body mass (LBM).  In the book, the authors refer back to The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living for those who wish to lose weight.  


The salient point about calories however is that once you've determined protein and carbohydrate, your remaining calories come from fat to fuel your energy needs for performance, with this being especially true for those who do not have high levels of body fat.

In the podcast above, Dr. Phinney took pains to emphasize that a "well formulated" low-carb diet restricts carbohydrate, is moderate (not high) in protein and is high in fat.  Yet what that means wasn't well defined.  Details are found in the above books and the formulation is not based on percentage of calories from each macronutrient, but rather expressed as specific grams for carbohydrate and protein requirements based on height and gender (The New Atkins For You), based on kilograms of LBM (The Art & Science of Low Carbohydate Performance) or 1.5g to 2.5g of reference weight (The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living).  


Interestingly, in the last one, detail was provided to show how initially on a calorie restricted low-carb diet, protein intake will appear to be high as a percentage of calories - yet when factoring total calories being expended through weight loss, it really is less a percent of the total calorie expenditure; and that once one refines calories for maintenance of body weight, percentage of protein usually falls within "...15% and 25% of your daily energy intake coming from protein."

So in each of the books, calories are not ignored, but fundamentally part of what you eat to lose or maintain weight. More importantly, each details why within context of a low-carb diet - which for weight loss reduces calories and stabilizes hormonal function, and in weight maintenance keeps body weight and hormones stable.  '

Over the years I've written quite a lot on how to do a low-carb diet that allows for weight loss while being nutrient-dense.  From my experience, three things are needed for long-term success - one is adequate calories because if you restrict calories too much, that is counter-productive to weight loss as the body makes adjustments when energy intake is too low to prevent additional weight loss; two, a nutrient-dense selection of foods each day, to provide adequate intake of essential nutrients from EFA, EAA, vitamins, minerals and trace elements; and three, a calorie deficit.  


As you lose weight, I've long recommended looking at protein intake and calories if you stall - you see, protein intake confounding weight loss is not a new concept - since 2005 I've been writing about the critical importance of protein and how much one needs to meet EAA based on their weight.  In August, I posted a chart, based on weight and the standard 0.8g/kg body weight minimum protein required daily and the range of 1.0-1.5g typically needed when one is in ketosis to fuel gluconeogenesis.  I noted in that post, that some individuals, due to higher activity levels, may need up to 1.5g/kg body weight to meet needs, and that for most, the 1.0g-1.2g/kg seemed to work nicely.  That chart is helpful to understand how protein needs change with weight loss and can help with adjusting protein intake as one loses weight.

So the question remains, is Jimmy Moore following a "well formulated ketogenic diet"?

While he is in ketosis ("nutritional ketosis"), he is not within the well detailed guidelines in the above books.  That's okay too - his body, his experiment - I'm writing this to provide accurate information to anyone out there whom may wish to attempt replicating what Jimmy is doing, me pointing to the areas that may be problematic if one duplicates exactly what Jimmy is doing based on the little information he's provided in the last six months.  


Jimmy has provided scant detail about what he is eating in grams or calories, instead sticking to percentages of calories and a few representations of meals that were indeed within those ranges.  The interesting thing though is that none of the above books specify a percentage of calories - they look at absolute grams for protein and carbohydrate and explain how these work out to ratios, highlighting how percentages changes from weight loss to maintenance; not percentages to define how you eat when losing weight.

A couple of examples:

In Chapter 6 of The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, the authors note "Second, when someone goes on the Atkins or another low-carb diet, they usually lose weight, right?   Much of the weight loss comes from body fat, which typically provides up to half its daily energy from "inside" (ie. endogenous stores) during the initial weight loss phase.  So if someone is eating 1400 kcal/day consisting of relatively lean "protein foods" that are helf protein (700 kcal) but burns 2800 kcal per day, his/her dietary protein intake is actually supplying about 25% of their total daily energy need, falling below the empiric 30% ceiling noted above.  But to the casual observer who is ignoring the contribution of body fat stores, the actual food being eaten appears to be high protein."

Chapter 16: "In order to judge how best to formulate the mix of macro-nutrients in a low-carb diet, it is helpful to vizualize how your total energy intake will change from induction to maintenance.  As indicated in the graph on the next page, a typical male with a BMI of 34 might start out eating 1600 kcal in induction while his body burns 3200 kcal per day (thus the weight loss).  But after losing 50 pounds to a BMI of 27, his daily energy intake will need to increase substantially to eventually maintain him stable at that reduced weight."   The example given considers that his energy requirements are 2800 kcal a day, with 150g of protein (600 kcal) and now 100g of carbohydrate (400 kcal), leaving 1800 kcal from fat.  That would represent 64% of his energy requirement each day.

So what is Jimmy doing?  Let's look first at protein intake.  Jimmy says he averages 80g a day and that represents 12% of his calories. 

Is that enough?

When he started at 306 pounds, no; at his last weight of 245.8, no.  


In fact, it appears Jimmy is eating below his protein requirements during this experiment - something that for long-term success I do not recommend.

  • Using my chart online, at 306 his minimum requirement was 110g, good level for GNG 135g; at last weight minimum 90g, good level for GNG 115g. 
  • Using The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, which references back to The New Atkins for You, it would be based on height and gender, 95g-199g
  • Using The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, with 155.92 pounds LBM in November, would be 92g-156g

Taking a look at carbohydrate, representing 3% of his calories, he's averaging 20g-25g a day.  He's been doing this now for six months and has not yet increased his carbohydrate intake, basically remaining within what is traditionally called "Induction" level carbohydrate.  


He may want to re-read The New Atkins for You, where they agree with Atkins' original concept to increase carbohydrates as you lose weight to broaden your horizons and variety.  


"Don't make the mistake of staying in Induction too long just because you love how the pounds are peeling off.  Eventually it's important to move through the phases to ensure that you have cured yourself of your old habits and can reintroduce foods without halting your weight loss or provoking cravings.  Losing weight fast is exhilarating, but it will likely be a temporary fix if you don't find your comfort zone for eating in the "real world".

Lastly, he details that his fat intake represents 85% of his calories each day.  It is interesting to note that none of the menus within the above books has that much fat - the range is between 68% and 74%, varying daily if one were to just follow those menus; that range falls within the range you'd find in the original Atkins' diet books published between 1972 and 2002, and the most recent The New Atkins For You.  Personally, I do like The New Atkins For You as it explains a lot more of the science behind why low-carbohydrate diets are effective for weight loss.

My recommendation to anyone looking to experiment with "nutritional ketosis" is to first read the books above to understand how to do it properly, they provide details about what your protein requirements are, how to increase carbohydrate and include a wider variety of foods as you lose weight, what level of fat is needed, and more importantly, how to transition to maintain your weight.  If you don't want to buy new books and have the older versions of Atkins' books, re-read them, the older version is very similar without need to buy a ketone meter and strips.  If that's you thing and you feel you need to, fine measure blood serum, but remember, you do not need to.

If you just want a quick refresher on following Atkins, here is my Review Time post from August.

Whatever you do, remember, calories do matter - in context; that context is nutrient-density and endocrine function.  


Jimmy Moore has spent incredible time repeating that his "well formulated" ketogenic diet is very high in fat, 85% of calories - before you leap to do the same, because ketosis does not require 85% of calories from fat, please educate yourself and understand how it's really done!

159 comments:

  1. I'd stay clear of most of those books and the likes of Jimmy Moore and Taubes. You're setting yourself up for being shilled big time if you're reading that stuff. Cut your losses now if you've already paid for this stuff. Ketosis is completely unnecessary and doesn't provide anything like the benefits junk scientists like Taubes mislead their faithful into believing it does.

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    1. I have to disagree, I do think the science provides excellent support to the benefits many realize with carbohydrate restriction, not all, but most. Long term it's easy to get sucked into thinking things like calories do not matter, but overall, from my analysis of menus, controlled-carb menus offer the highest level of nutrient-density once one tweaks things within the range of macronutrients they need.

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    2. Javeux - have you actually read the books? I'll bet not.

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    3. Javeux - Have you actually read the books? I'll be not. And if not, do so.

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    4. Call Me Ducky5:27 PM

      Quack!

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    5. Of course he hasn't read it hes probably another Vegan troll they love to bad mouth what they are completely clueless of.

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    6. I'm betting not too Fred hes prob just another Vegan troll. They love to bash on low carbohydrate out of complete ignorance and the fact that it doesn't jive with their religion.

      Or whatever you want to call the bull that is Veganism. I actually don't think its necessarily bad...if done in a certain way short term...but long term it leads to brainlessness. They don't get enough fat for the brain to function ...

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    7. Jonathan, low carbers do the same thing in regards to veganism.

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    8. Vegans and Paleo-people are to food what TV evangelists are to religion.

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    9. That is true even though Jimmy Moore is a bad example re low-carbing as he comes from place of great ignorance, evangelical zeal and LOTS of advertising.

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  2. Anonymous11:02 AM

    Oh no! You're so jealous! Erm, I mean, you're so bitter! Ahh, okay, I mean, you're so mean to Jimmeh! I mean... science be damned! You're so meannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Waaaahhhhh!

    Thanks again for speaking up for common sense and reason and not caving to the fad idea n=1 of the moment.

    Calories definitely matter: Even Atkins said as much.

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    1. Its an N1 for a reason. His ratios may not be for everyone. That is exactly why its an N1. Do you have any clue of the concept you are bashing?

      Calories do matter but its not as simple as saying calories in and calories out and that is what Jimmy etc...say. There are numerous factors that change both the input/output parts of the equation which if not accounted for lead you to wrong conclusions.

      Getting caught up on calories is not a good idea as it makes it harder for many to deal with. Not everyone wants to count every calorie. If you eat the right kinds of foods you naturally end up with a calorie deficit without counting. If for some reason you don't lose you can look at your calories and adjust.

      Why people have a problem with being freestyle I don't know....sheesh. If something isn't working you can tweak it. Its what N1 is about.

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    2. Anonymous8:34 AM

      It would be great if people weren't mistakenly quoting his n=1 as gospel fact for the entire planet. I think they're misleading and anecdotal.

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    3. Not everyone eating the right foods naturally ends up with a calorie deficit. Count calories if you are not losing.

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  3. Anyone with half a brain knows Jimmy isn't doing a ketogenic diet correctly. But, sadly, some just follow along and don't take the time to go see if what he's doing is what they're supposed to do. Good old fashion Atkins' works well for the vast majority because they do get into ketosis without needing to prick their fingers and measure ketones. I cannot believe how many people have scrambled to get meters and strips to do what Jimmy is doing. And now he's not even doing it right. No surprise. The only time he did it "right" was back in 2004, and maintained doing it right until he stopped doing it right. I was reading Jimmy's blog long ago and he maintained eating 90g of carbohydrate a day, even crappy frankenfoods. But his insistence that calories don't count if it's low-carb was his undoing. And once he's done with this "new" thing, it'll be his undoing again, as it has been each time he's gained.

    I feel sorry for him, but not really since if he kept what he did to himself, all would be better off since they'd need to go read and learn how to do it from those who know how to do it because Jimmy clearly does not know how to do it.

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    1. Anonymous11:50 AM

      I so wish this had been written months ago, before I went off half-cocked doing what Jimmy is doing. I didn't lose any weight and when I'd ask what I was doing wrong, everyone said eat more fat, so I did and gained. I got off crazy street and just went back to what worked, Induction. i do track my meals in fitday to keep my carbs below 30g, so i know I'm now eating 1,700 calories a day and based on the chart Regina linked to, I am eating the right amount of protein now. When I just looked back on my days trying to eat more fat, I was eating a lot less protein than I needed and way more calories because I was heaping the butter on everything. Big mistake. I hope others read this and look at what they're doing to make sure they're eating what they need, not just want Jimmy says!

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    2. Anonymous3:10 PM

      Shoot me now, I tried it too and no, it didn't work for me. That much fat made me feel nauseous and I just couldn't keep eating like that. I don't know how Jimmy does it, but I think it's because he only eats like once a day, probably just shoving it in to get it over with. I realized after a month that my protein was way too low, so I increased that and didn't keep adding gobs of butter, coconut oil and olive oil to every last thing I ate. I started to lose weight again and think it's great this article is here, so others don't do it without finding out what they need for protein. I think the protein is really the key to staying sated, not the fat on its own. At least that's my experience.

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    3. I've done what I consider low carb for many years. I bought a ketone meter out of curiosity and even with eating about 120g of carbohydrate a day, I have a ketone level of 1.0, so I obviously don't need more fat.

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    4. April4:21 PM

      Regina, it's refreshing to have you back! Thanks for the post since I was toying with trying the 85% fat thing myself, I am waiting for my ketone meter. I think I need to order Phinney's books first and take a look myself, I definitely don't want to short change myself protein! Thanks for the chart too, that helps! I'm pretty close to goal now and I really just want the last 10 pounds gone!

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    5. Anonymous4:58 PM

      Well I did it and it's working. Why are you people so intent on making Jimmy look bad?

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    6. Anonymous8:35 AM

      Jimmy makes Jimmy look bad. He needs no help from anyone else.

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    7. I don't think Jimmy needs anyone to "make" him look bad, he's doing fine on his own in that department!

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  4. Regina, would you write a post about how your eating changed over the years? You've maintained your weight and so many others haven't, I'd like more details about what it is you do to understand better what might be my mistakes. Thank you!

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    1. Anonymous1:25 PM

      I for one would like to hear more about how you manage your calories to maintain.

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  5. LowCarb11:25 AM

    What's truly scary is Jimmy launched (today) his new menu service, providing (for a fee) menus and details about keeping your fat intake really high. For just $9.99 a month, $49 for six months, or $89 for a year, you too can follow Jimmy's plan to eat.

    FUNNY HOW CALORIES ARE ON THE SITE:

    How Many Calories Do You Need?

    You can figure out roughly how many calories you need at the Mayo Clinic’s handy dandy little calculator. Your result is an APPROXIMATE. We can’t stress that enough, but it will at least give you an idea of how much or little you should be eating every day, and therefore how you should or shouldn’t tweak the meal plan.

    If you’re trying to lose weight, subtract 200 or 300 calories from that every day and you’ll likely start losing weight. More info on that below. If you want to get more detailed about it, go sign up for a free account at www.myfitnesspal.com, and in the set-up process, it’ll tell you how many calories you should be eating in order to lose 1 or 2 pounds a week. By the way, 1 or 2 pounds per week is a healthy and sustainable amount to lose, although it may end up being more or less than that, depending on your metabolism, stress levels, sleep habits, etc.



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    1. Anonymous11:27 AM

      Jimmy is providing menus? Jesus wept.

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    2. Anonymous11:29 AM

      Did you catch the "eat less oil" in there?

      How to Decrease Food on The Meal Plan

      Subtract snacks from the meal plan. Just don’t buy that jerky or the nuts. Then cut your lunch in half. Eat one half of your lunch for lunch and one half as your snack.
      Use less oil when you cook. A tablespoon of oil is over 100 calories, so if you use half a teaspoon (or none) instead of a tablespoon, it will add up over the day.
      If you find that your partner on the plan needs more food and you need less food than you’re getting, then give your partner more food and you take less. No more even portions for two very differently proportioned people.

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    3. Mark A11:36 AM

      If calories don't count, why would anyone try to decrease food in the meal plan, or figure out their calorie requirements?

      Jimmy, we see here is a hypocrite.

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    4. Anonymous12:13 PM

      Jimmy obviously isn't practicing what he preaches. I take that back. He does and that's why he's gained weight again and again, under the spell of calories don't count.

      Who actually did those menus and the website? I really do not think that's Jimmy's hand there. He's fronting for the work of someone else, them capitalizing on his "brand" because that is not Jimmy's style or what he preaches at all.

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    5. I think I may just have to do a review of the menus sometime in the near future!

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    6. Anonymous1:37 PM

      I wonder who he hired to write those menus and recipes. The fat bastard isn't much of an example.

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    7. Anonymous3:42 PM

      Who is going to buy menus from a fat man? Who?

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    8. Anonymous4:57 PM

      No is making anyone buy them. Why the hate?

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    9. Tammy5:18 PM

      Anonymous @ 4:57, Seriously?

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    10. Anonymous6:15 PM

      Jimmy's going to need to figure out how to reconcile the calorie thing since he can't very well sell menus designed around calories that are high protein and be selling the idea of nutritional ketosis is 85% fat, now can he?

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    11. Anonymous9:31 PM

      I don't see this as a good business model for Jimmy. Why would anyone buy menus from him when he gains and loses and gains it back? Did he think that through? Or is he really thinking there are enough newbies out there who know no better?

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    12. Anonymous8:35 AM

      Agreed. Quack!

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  6. Anonymous11:46 AM

    Jimmy goes to extremes and I feel bad for those that follow. Anyone remember his Eggfest? How is this any different? Oh, that's right, it's not.

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  7. Anonymous12:07 PM

    Nutrition information from the Lemon Basil Chicken recipe


    Nutritional Information
    (per serving)

    265 Calories
    6g Carbs
    13g Fat
    32g Protein
    5g Net Carbs
    Serving Size

    That's just 44% fat, not 85%. It's also 48% protein.

    What planet does Jimmy live on? He now thinks someone is going to pay for his menus?

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    1. Tammy5:19 PM

      Jimmers is doing this to make money, so he can't very well sell what's failed him, can he?

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  8. Anonymous12:16 PM

    I am so glad so many bloggers are speaking up!

    Did you see Rob Wolf's post yesterday? http://robbwolf.com/2012/12/19/carb-paleo-thoughts-part-1/

    Or this one? http://weightmaven.org/2012/12/19/quote-of-the-day-113/

    I got here from there and to Rob's article too. Thank you!

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    1. I saw Robb's post yesterday, but missed Beth's - thanks for the links!

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    2. Anonymous4:34 PM

      Jimmy's even starting to back track now too. When he posted about Robb's article, he noted that it was similar to Regina's and then said it's that he's got ketones, so he's losing weight. What is wrong with his inability to wrap his head around calories? I don't know, but given that Robb is also speaking up, I think Jimmy is going to be careful because Robb has a lot of influence, especially at the conferences. If Jimmy wants to keep being part of those, he's going to need to look like he's with the program!

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    3. Anonymous4:56 PM

      Why exactly do you care what Jimmy Moore eats? How does this effect you? Leave him alone already!

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    4. Call Me Ducky5:26 PM

      Quack!

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    5. I be primal11:26 AM

      I don't know why Wolf is still headlining the low-carb cruise in May, with that post and his slow but sure distance from low-carb over the last year.

      Why is he doing the cruise?

      The only thing I can think is that he may realize Jimmy's brand expiration date is near. Somehow Jimmikins survived after the KimCON fiasco, with good PR helping him, but now? Still obese, is his brand really going to survive? Maybe Wolf is banking on it not?

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  9. Anonymous12:51 PM

    An observation from someone who has Jimmy's pages on facebook, so I get stuff from his walls, and I'm also on other groups too. Jimmy carefully posts about your "pontificating" on his own pages to stir the troops, but steers clear of trying to create war on groups like Fat Head or IPMG, where he'd get no traction. Just thought you'd like to know if you're not in all those places on facebok too!

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    1. I'm a betting man and I bet Jimmy will not link to this one on facebook or his blog. Too damning. He may want a fight, but he's not going to clue his readers in that he's not doing NK right, so this one, he's going to ignore, ignore, ignore and hope no one comes over here on their own and then comments on his blog or facebook about it. Oh, wait, he's got that covered, he'll just delete them from ever seeing the light of day!

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    2. Not a bet I'd take since I think you're right, he's going to totally pretend this one isn't here now! He definitely won't want anyone to see how he's not following what he keeps saying is in the book!

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    3. Anonymous3:14 PM

      I'm 100% positive he'll ignore it and not make any fuss about it anywhere because if he did, he'd be exposing he's not doing it by the book as he implies all the time! Thanks for taking the time to read the books Regina, the post above is very helpful!

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    4. Marissa3:37 PM

      He won't do it, so that's a safe bet anon. I think he's going to be sorely disappointed when he realizes how many of us don't need him to link here for us to check what's here! I am so glad you're back Regina!

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    5. Call Me Ducky5:31 PM

      QUACK, QUACK - He did post the link on facebook and gave the disingenuous "THANK YOU REGINA" as if....

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    6. Call Me Ducky5:34 PM

      QUACK, QUACK, QUACK.

      News flash, he's getting creamed in the comments here, so he wants the sycophants to head over the comment and set you all straight!

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    7. Anonymous5:38 PM

      Jimmy is getting creamed because he's an idiot, who the fuck really thinks calories don't count. Are people really that stupid?

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    8. Anonymous5:42 PM

      I just came from Jimmy's facebook page, so he did post this link.

      But, no, I'm not going to call Regina a meanie or bitter or jealous. Heck, she helped me years ago figure out why I was stalled and it was my calories. So, for me, she's preaching to the choir.

      I do think it's a bit amusing that Jimmy truly believes you're doing this FOR him, not ABOUT his misleading ideas of what ASLCL and ASLCP really say. Maybe he just didn't understand? I don't know. But he is so invested in the super insane high fat intake now, how does he back up? If you have a chance, check the facebook page because he said he's reduced fat now. Yeah, ok, right. Nice timing with these posts here, huh?

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    9. He's saving face now.

      Watch out, he's going all southern syrupy sweet on ya Regina!

      "I appreciate Regina's perspective and welcome her feedback about what I'm doing. THANK YOU Regina!"

      You know that's not genuine, right?

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    10. Anonymous6:19 PM

      If nothing else, maybe her nagging got to him, he posted on facebook that he reduced his fat intake and upped his carbs. Maybe there is still hope for him?

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    11. I just don't get the animosity here. Can't we all just get along? What Jimmy does does not effect you!

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    12. Call Me Ducky6:30 PM

      Kumbaya!

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    13. Anonymous6:56 PM

      Cream is low carb! Creamed is too!

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    14. Call Me Ducky7:04 PM

      Had to share since some whacko on Jimmy's facebook wrote this and I thought you would want to see it. Wonder if Jimmy will set her straight? I think he forgets who Ducky is!!!! I didn't start with Kimkins, I started with him!!!!!

      What is the core of this woman's fixation with you? Why does she need to prove you "wrong?" It's getting a little creepy, really. I wonder if she recognizes how her writing sounds to other people who aren't keyed into this weird mental one-sided relationship she's built with you. Some people will be in NK to 1.5 at 70% fat; others won't be. She absolutely appears unaware that Dr. Westman in his own clinic keeps people with serious issues at 20 total carbs forever with no harm and no ill effects. The majority of people will do fine at 70% fat without counting calories. However people with serious metabolic problems need a tighter structure, counting calories and carbs. No one here denies physics - we all know calories count. The issue is who needs to count them and when? What's her issue with that? Is Dr. Westman's own clinical practice & success at Duke not enough for her? Does she have a clinic that produces equal results? Does she know something that Dr. Westman doesn't? Funny how she quotes Dr. Volek's book but doesn't speak to him about it - unlike you, who has interviewed Volek and spoken to him pretty frequently. And does she really imagine that those of out here reading don't know all this? That we don't know about Dr. Westman or watch his videos?

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    15. Steve C7:17 PM

      That woman obviously is clueless. Didn't you actually help Jimmy get involved with the lowcarb community a long time ago? If he doesn't man up and say something I'd be pissed if I were you.

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    16. Anonymous1:26 PM

      What's with the quacks? I don't get it.

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    17. Anonymous2:31 PM

      It's something from when Kimkins was being grassroots investigated. A bunch of people called themselves the duck brigade because someone named Ducky was the one who started to really try to figure out the fraud, which prompted a lot of others to jump in and they wound up uncovering a massive fraud by a woman named Heidi who was morbidly obese, but had pictures on her site claiming she lost tons of weight on the starvation diet she was selling access to.

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  10. Anonymous1:23 PM

    I am so glad I didn't jump and do what Jimmy's doing. I waited to see what others saw for results and some of the blogs out there are showing that it's really hard to eat that much fat, and that if you do, many are feeling nauseous or sick, tired, etc. It's probably because their protein is too low. Jimmy's so big still that he probably can get away with much more than the average overweight person. He still has a lot of abdominal fat to contend with.

    After I saw what happened with Neely, I said no way, not for me. www.paleoplan.com/2012/11-12/ketosis-experiment-update-i-yield/

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  11. Anonymous1:32 PM

    Didn't Jimmy originally lose the weight just doing Atkins? If I recall he maintained for like a year and a half before he let himself get sidetracked?

    His current diet habits are the most extreme to date, a friggin nightmare if you ask me. I don't know anyone who could eat 85% fat for life, even kids on epileptic diets have real difficulty with the really high fat and they comply because it helps keep them free of seizures, but to maintain weight, that level of fat in the diet isn't even occur in nature or any populations in the world! Why he's making this his signature, I do not understand. For someone who used to take a much different approach, this is really unsustainable for the long term. Oh, I bet he'll try though, he's dug himself in really deep with this one. If he gains again, his already very shaky credibility will be gone.

    The whole menus thing boggles my mind. Someone who hasn't managed to get it right is now providing menus?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous1:39 PM

      It reminds me of Kimkins. Do as I say, not as I do. That'll be $39.95.

      Delete
    2. He's charging for menus? WTF is up with that? Like he knows how to do lowcarb? I think not!

      Delete
  12. I'm not pontificating here…but please…"did you know that if you eat to much protein it's just like cake? I'm not kidding." With statements like that Jimmy Moore is quickly making himself irrelevant, and I'm guessing sane people with start distancing themselves. What a huckster.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Until he's uninvited to Paleo and Ancestral conferences to speak, I hope people will keep speaking up, the man is a menace to healthy eating!

      Delete
    2. Anonymous5:56 PM

      I think he's being invited because people believe they can 'cure' his morbid obesity and health issues with paleo/ancestral eating. He's their experiment to prove low-carb is bad, paleo is good.

      Delete
  13. Anonymous4:29 PM

    That was a very informative podcast. Dr. Phiney also said in the podcast you linked that ketones, even in the desired range, does not mean you'll lose weight. You need a calorie deficit! How Jimmy misses that all the time, I don't get it.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Let's assume there's a metabolic advantage on nutty K, at the usual figure of 300 Kcal/day.
    That's less than 3 tablespoons of olive oil, butter or what.
    Not a lot of wiggle room there.

    The benefit of dietary ketosis is this; for some people, over-eating is a brain disease. Ketosis can cure brain diseases better than anything else.

    Calories have nothing to with this effect; ketones can fix your appetite if that's really the problem. This might be a lasting fix, it might not.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous4:55 PM

      Jimmy is eating less, ergo he's losing again. Not a big f'in deal when you see how many times he's done it before. NK is just his diet du jour.

      Delete
    2. Call Me Ducky5:25 PM

      Even if he won't ever admit it, he's eating less calories. Yeah, that's how you lose weight. Duh! Quack!

      Delete
    3. He's eating fewer calories because ketones have fixed his appetite regulation neurons. Forget about dieting for a moment - if problems are due to neuronal injury (and addiction is one sort of neuronal injury), ketosis can fix that.
      Making it much easier to eat the right amount for one's needs.

      "The therapeutic potential of calorie restriction and the ketogenic diet have been repeatedly demonstrated in clinical settings and in various animal models of neurological disease. The underlying mechanisms involve an improvement in mitochondrial function, a decrease in the expression of apoptotic factors and an increase in the activity of neurotrophic factors. Clinical applications of ketogenic diets have been significantly hampered however by poor tolerability and potentially serious side-effects. Recent research aimed at identifying a mediator that can reproduce the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction with less demanding changes to dietary intake suggests that ketone bodies might represent an appropriate candidate. Ketone bodies protect neurons against multiple types of neuronal injury and the underlying mechanisms are similar to those of calorie restriction and of the ketogenic diet. The present review describes the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction, the ketogenic diet and ketone bodies and compare the molecular mechanisms of action of these interventions."
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2649682/

      Nutty K is a pharmacological intervention and energy balance is only relevant once it starts working.

      Delete
  15. Tammy5:21 PM

    I looked at the menu site he launched and I have to say, it's eerily Kimkins style of pay and I'll tell you what you want to hear.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Call Me Ducky5:24 PM

      We need another DUCK REVOLUTION! Quack!

      Delete
    2. Green Fluffy Duck5:35 PM

      Ducky? Is that you?

      Delete
    3. Anonymous8:38 AM

      Bring back the ducks!

      Delete
  16. Great article with salient points but such poor quality of comments that seem to be focused on personal attacks rather than real debate. I really do not feel Jimmy has mislead anyone in his quest to share what works for him, and has always stated individual experience is likely to vary.

    Obviously for Jimmy he can lose weight in a caloric surplus if he eats as he is. Phinney indeed stated there is no reason you cannot gain weight on a low carb keto diet if you eat to much, but he also states individual amounts will vary.

    Sure calories count. But like your carb tolerance, its an individual response.

    When I did zero carb, my bodily response to excess was calories was to make me feel compelled to move more. I ate 6000 calories a day for a week and lost weight, but hell man I had to go run every single day, I couldn't help myself. Seems the body can deal with calories by more methods than simply storing the excesss, but it would require open minds to admit that possibility not a group focused on personal attacks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey Danny!

      I've also done a short term over-feeding, specifically kept protein at minimum requirement, carbohydrate below 20g and fat making up the excess. In the short term, I had a similar experience as you did, compulsion to move more. I did lose a little to, but I was also glycogen stored since I had been eating my normal higher carb for a long time, so I chalked the loss up to water & glycogen since I was obviously going ketotic! But, not only did attempting to eat excess calories by increasing fat make me feel physically ill, I don't know if that level of need to move would have remained constant - would I have settled in and started to gain? I don't know, I couldn't keep doing it because each day eating more than I needed really was revolting and I reached a point where I absolutely thought I'd puke if I kept forcing it, so I stopped.

      I do not think Jimmy is in a calorie surplus now, or in the last six months. He's in ketosis, for sure, but he's also (if you do the math) in a calorie deficit and that's liberating his fat stores to be used for energy and he's losing weight. I'm glad he's losing weight!

      So far as the comments here, I think some are letting off steam; that and I don't censor comments unless they're cruel or way beyond reasonable.

      Delete
  17. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Jimmy is back tracking big time! Now he says he's reduced fat? Wait, didn't he just update all with "I'm going to keep doing this" because he thinks it's magic? Now he's reducing fat?

    Nice job Regina!!!! Somehow you helped him actually reduce that crazy fat intake!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous9:33 PM

      I saw that too. Now he's reduced his fat and upped his carbs. He needs to make up his mind what he's doing. And no, he's not doing what is in Art and Science of LC Living or Performance. I've read both and that's why I roll my eyes at his "experiment" because that's exactly what it is! He's going to kill himself if he keeps it up so maybe it's good he's finally wising up and reducing the fat?

      Delete
  18. Anonymous6:55 PM

    I'm dumbfounded that Jimmy wants so badly to try to ignore calories. Again he's eating less and losing. If he can't tweak to maintenance calories after he loses more, he'll go right back up again.

    He might not like hearing it, but he needs to listen. I don't think any of us want to see him fail. I don't. I do want him to figure this out because he has a bad family history and he needs to deal with his weight and keep it off.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous6:58 PM

    Really folks? Jimmy is all you can focus on? How many of you are still fat yourselves? Unless you're perfect, don't go criticizing him. You're only doing it because you're anonymous. If you were open and let him see what you're saying, you'd all be stroking his ego like you always do. And yes, you are jealous of his success in making something out of his diet!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not fat anymore after finally seeing the light. Plus easier for me to do as my livelihood no tied up with low carb.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous8:25 PM

      I'm only jealous I didn't realize I could sell a diet plan while I was still morbidly obese, like Jimmy and Kimmer! I missed out on truckloads of cash.

      Delete
    3. David8:30 PM

      You're anonymous, too.

      These are but the tip of the iceberg that is the banished persons list from Jimmy's webpire. He's as about into free speech as the dictator of North Korea.

      Delete
    4. Tommy8:56 PM

      Good catch David. Funny when people criticize anonymity and stay anonymous them self. Why?

      Delete
    5. Anonymous12:33 PM

      Consumer advocates can afford to stay anonymous. What's so wrong with calling into question people gaming consumers?

      Delete
  20. Anonymous7:17 PM

    Sigh. Jimmy will continue his attempts to make a living off his extreme dieting (while selling something quite different); the collective 'we' will continue to talk about it; Jimmy will keep cashing the checks.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I'm afraid I don't understand the slavish references to a "well-formulated" low carb diet. Frankly I don't think it's been pinpointed with quality studies that "such and such" percentages of fat, protein and carbohydrate are necessary to lose weight and be healthy. Jimmy's n=1 study has been very interesting to me and I don't think he should be slammed for trying something different... quite the contrary actually. What I think should be slammed is an obvious smear piece for no good reason that I can see.

    And saying that someone shouldn't stay in the induction phase because you won't know if you've cured bad habits is, well, idiotic. If you're eating in an induction fashion and you like what you're eating and you're happy with your weight/weight loss then what the heck is wrong with eating that way? Nothing at all would be my guess.

    Frankly I think you should examine your motives for writing this article. It seems like you're more interested in slamming a guy who does a lot of good in terms of getting the low carb message out to the public as opposed to being being informative.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous9:01 PM

      Take it up with Phinney, Westman, et al, it was their book that said the cure your bad habits thing, as well as not staying in Induction forever. I seem to recall Dr. Atkins said the same thing too.

      I'm glad Regina wrote this, it bring back some reasonable look at things and asks readers to do some research. Nothing wrong with that.

      If it were up to Jimmy, everyone would be 85% fat, just like him. Oh he does say to find what works for you, except he doesn't really believe that. You can tell he doesn't every time he slams someone doing something other than really lowcarb! Jimmy as the face of lowcarb is just nuts. He's the only one with enough time to write and keeps ramping up the extreme. I for one do NOT think he's relevant anymore. I also think the paleo and primal crowds should wise up that he's attempting to co-opt their space too.

      Delete
    2. Jimmy is the one who keeps harping on "well formulated" so I think that's why it was highlighted here.

      I hate when he says that, it implies you're stupid or something if you're not doing it like he is.

      I glad that someone wrote up what the books actually say because every time I've pointed out that Volek & Phinney never said to eat THAT MUCH fat, I've been deleted or my comments not published. It's frustrating because Jimmy has been dominating the space with his crazy high fat intake and no one wants to believe it's not supposed to be that high! If it were, don't you think they'd have included it in their books?

      Any diet that gets you into a calorie deficit works, even better when you're not hungry for more. Low Carb is great for satiety, but it's also really easy to eat too much and we can see with Jimmy what happens when you do that all the time, you gain weight because you're eating too many damn calories.

      I like food too, but if we don't watch it, we're going to pile pounds back on.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous7:41 AM

      This is Westman's slideshow for how to do the diet in his clinic....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl2vZYbXbeA

      Delete
  22. Very sad that people have nothing better to do than to spit this venom. Totally removes any possible meaning/value from the entire blog post, if this is the kind of company it keeps. no thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ducks Gone Wild8:40 AM

      Get over yourself. People have been tired of Jimmy's schlock for years. Consumers can't let off steam now? What's the world like in your sheltered corner of the world?

      Delete
  23. Patrice Mahoney9:10 PM

    I am so glad you're back Regina! Thank you for this one. The comments are interesting to say the least, but I want to comment on your post.

    I hope Jimmy at least increases his protein to what he needs. He does keep pounding on that he's eating moderate protein, but 12% of calories is not much if he's not eating a lot of calories.

    He's also eating only once or twice a day, that alone has to limit his calories. At least I would think it would.

    For me I know I feel lousy if I eat too much fat and too little protein. I eat at the higher end of the range you posted on your chart, so I know I eat enough. If I try to eat more than I usually do, I feel really full and don't really want it, so I don't eat it. For me it's a good indicator that I've gotten what I needed. I wonder if that mechanism is lacking with Jimmy?

    The other thing I don't understand is why insulin is such a bad guy. We need it or we die.



    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous9:28 PM

    Oh my, look at all these comments.

    I hope you'll keep writing Regina, for years I looked forward to your blog daily.

    That said, I do not think Jimmy wants to hear it (yet) about calories. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is and until he wants to change and accept that he has to be careful with his calories, he's going to continue on the roller coaster with his weight. This post is helpful because I was starting to wonder with so many jumping on board with this ketosis twist if it was really supposed to be that high in fat. I see it's not, so I think I'll keep doing what I do, no need to go changing just to be with the crowd.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous9:48 PM

    I haven't tried NK myself, but I honestly thought it had to be that high in fat because of how Jimmy presents the information on his blog. I couldn't stomach the thought of adding that much fat and I'm glad I didn't try it anyway. I do need to read the books, they sound more doable and maybe I'll see if I'm doing things well enough or if I should tweak some things. I'm stuck about 15 pounds from where I want to be and maybe I need to look at calories too? I haven't because everyone keeps saying up fat now, don't count calories, which makes this all so confusing.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Very sad, the Jimmy Moore enablers.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Regarding: "Who actually did those menus and the website? I really do not think that's Jimmy's hand there. He's fronting for the work of someone else, them capitalizing on his "brand" because that is not Jimmy's style or what he preaches at all"

    If it's not Neely Quinn, who foolishly tried NK and thankfully gave it up, I'll call Jimmy "sensationally skinny" when I meet him someday!
    paleoplan.com/2012/11-08/nutritional-ketosis-update/
    http://www.paleoplan.com/tour/#meal-plan
    Jimmy just slapped his name on it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous8:15 AM

      Neely's is registered with Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
      Domain Name: PALEOPLAN.COM
      Created on: 30-Jun-09
      Expires on: 30-Jun-13
      Last Updated on: 01-Jul-11

      Registrant:
      Jason Glaspey
      624 NE Simpson St.
      Portland, Oregon 97211
      United States

      Jimmy's is registered with Current Registrar: TUCOWS.COM CO.
      IP Address: 64.13.203.208 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
      Lock Status: clientTransferProhibited



      Registrant:
      Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0132572824
      96 Mowat Ave
      Toronto, ON M6K 3M1
      CA

      They do have the exact same set-up database in the background though. Interesting.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous8:27 AM

      I just looked at both of those plans and they do have exact same recipes in each, Neely has more recipes listed, but Jimmy has some that are on her's with exact same title and I haven't looked, but maybe he's changed titles on other receipes? The plot thickens.....

      Delete
    3. I'm looking at the plans, they can distribute through different venues. Shopping lists for 2, check! Menus & recipes, check! Other wordings are similar.

      Delete
    4. There's nothing really nefarious about this. It is just cheezy. What are the qualifications of the person putting together these plans? If I were inclined to subscribe to something like this, I'd want the plan to be designed by someone with some sort of credentials. Neely at least has a certificate in nutrition, though not a mainstream academic one. However she's borderline eating disordered herself, talking about binging and body image and such quite a bit, not to mention the idiocy of doing NK at 100 lbs to begin with. http://www.paleoplan.com/2012/11-08/nutritional-ketosis-update/

      Delete
    5. Anonymous1:08 PM

      I love how CarbSpew backtracks here after all of the attacks she constantly throws at Taubes and Moore. I wonder if they've threatened her with lawsuits to recant so quickly.

      Delete
  28. A massage therapist, Molly Pearl, is credited with the meal planning and menus on the Paleo Plan site. Jimmy's site has no one listed as the person behind the menus.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous10:00 AM

    Did you see this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXbV0gxRfPo&feature=youtu.be

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous12:34 PM

    Jimmy does leave one with the impression that NK is really high in fat and if you don't get in enough fat, you'll not be in ketosis. That's bunk. Ketosis happens when you're in a calorie deficit and consume low glucose stimulating foods, not because you eat 85% fat every day. It happens to in a calorie rich environment where glucose stimulating food is limited too. Ketones are needed and made when your glucose isn't going up and down all the time so you have a source of energy. If Jimmy thinks it is ketosis making him lose weight, he's wrong. His calorie deficit is.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Martha1:28 PM

    I used to pay attention to Jimmy, but after his foray into eggfest land, I'd had enough. He enjoys extreme way too much and doesn't really focus on what's going to work long term, it's all about the moment, even if it's not healthy. He says what he does is healthy and "it" every time, past and present, and gained weight back over and over. What really turned me off though was that after all these years, he eats crappy, pretends its all good because it's now grass-fed or pastured, conveniently forgetting he actually fared better with more variety and carbs before he ignored his weight gains for too damn long. You'd think if he just looked back over all his posts and menus the lightbulb would go off and he'd have an a-ha moment that his weight goes down when he restricts calories (by whatever means is the in thing for him) and goes up when he eats whatever he wants. His calories are the no brainer her that he still ignores.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous1:32 PM

      Jimmy lost me with the eggfest too. I thought that was over the top, now I see this 85% fat and wonder what's next when this doesn't work?

      Delete
  32. Wow, lots of comments! What more is there to say? I'll just add I do think Jimmy should seriously look at calories for his longterm if he wants to keep the weight off this time.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous1:58 PM

    THANK YOU!

    NO YOU DON'T NEED 85% FAT TO BE IN KETOSIS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT JIMMY MOORE THINKS HE'S DOING, BUT IT ISN'T NUTRITIONAL KETOSIS BY THE BOOKS. THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES ANYONE HAS BROUGHT IT UP, WE'RE SHUT DOWN BY HIM AND HE JUST KEEPS GOING ON AND ON ABOUT ADDING BUTTER, SOUR CREAM AND TONS OF FAT TO WHAT HE EATS.

    85% FAT IS INSANE!

    I WISH VOLEK AND PHINNEY WOULD COME OUT AND SAY SOMETHING BECAUSE I KNOW THEY'RE NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH WHAT JM IS DOING, BUT THEY'RE ALSO NOT WANTING TO ROCK THE BOAT, JIMMY HAS A BIG DRAW UNFORTUNEATELY.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous2:03 PM

      Why do you care what Jimmy eats? For him NK requires 85% fat, why does that upset you? If it works for him, it works for him, how does that threaten you?

      Delete
    2. Anonymous4:06 PM

      Jimmy has to live with Jimmy - and I think that's justice enough.

      Delete
  34. Anonymous3:52 PM

    I don't agree that Jimmy needs more protein. If he were protein deficient, he'd be losing lean mass instead of gaining it.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous4:05 PM

    Listen to Jimmer lie his ass off about his regains over the years. What a fraud.

    http://www.fatburningman.com/jimmy-moore-nutritional-ketosis/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous8:41 AM

      And people wonder why the consumers are calling him into question.

      Delete
  36. LC Jane11:12 AM

    The comments here are all over the place. Let me say that I do like Jimmy, he is a sweet guy and seems to really try. What I don't like is the constant search for something new, the thing that's alluded him in his mind, the magical thing he's missed somewhere in the past doing low-carb.

    I do think Jimmy should have been more forthcoming that in the books the dietary fat is not 85%. His statements over the last few months have left the impression that he is doing NK by the book, and here we see he's not. I don't think that means he's doing it wrong, but that he's not been forthcoming about what he's doing differently and that's left an impression amongst low-carbers that what he's doing is by the book. When they attempt the same, they're not having the same experience and do not know why. If he'd explained how what he's doing differs, that may have been more helpful to low-carbers who wanted to try NK.

    I do appreciate the review of the books and what protein recommendations are, especially since Jimmy is eating less protein than the recommendation. I think too that that's also contributed to many not feeling well on NK. Jimmy is a big guy, so someone hearing he's eating 80 grams and they're alot smaller, so they think 60 grams is okay, but they really need 80 grams. Well, you can see how that might not work out well.

    Thank you for the link to your review of Atkins. I haven't read your blog in a long time and missed that since I didn't know you were again writing. I have fits and starts with Atkins and your series of posts that I read long ago, needs to be read again!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Richard7:20 PM

      "Let me say that I do like Jimmy, he is a sweet guy"

      How exactly did that particular meme gain circulation? His *public persona* (much of which has to do with US Southern culture) is that of a 'sweet guy' - but he is not, by any real-world measure, a 'sweet guy'.

      Ask the literally hundreds who've been banned from his site(s).

      Delete
    2. Yes, Richard. He's up to the same things and worse that almost destroyed him with Kimkins. Seems he didn't learn lessons after all.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous1:07 PM

      I love how Evelyn follows Regina like a sad, desperate puppy dog looking to be important with her "Me too! Me too!" cries for attention.

      Delete
  37. Anonymous1:50 PM

    As for Jimmy Moore, no sane low carber should ever hold him up as a success story. Yes, he did lose 180 pounds but he gained almost a hundred back, so now he's on nuttyNK. And he's not even doing it right.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In the Abel James podcast linked to here, he mentions being approached by a publisher to write a book on his experience. *SIGH* Whether he does it correctly or not is not the issue. As with his first book where he prematurely boasted of getting off the diet yo-yo and becoming "sensationally skinny", this will be a premature declaration of victory. He will need to maintain -- in consistent fashion -- his weight for at least a year. He spoke of accountability in that podcast too. He owes that to his readers at this point.

      Delete
  38. Anonymous2:34 PM

    I'm interested in nutritional ketosis and really thought it had to be 85% fat from what Jimmy's been saying. I need to get the books!

    ReplyDelete
  39. marilynb8:36 AM

    The danger with Jimmy is all the people trying to do exactly what he does. Keep in mind that Jimmy has been referring to his NK diet as an n=1 EXPERIMENT. People who select an experimental diet for themselves are using poor judgement. It has not been proven to be as effective or healthful on a large segment of the population, such as Atkins. We don't even know if it's a safe diet for the human body. It's only been proven that for the time being, it's working for Jimmy. I commented on his LLVLC forum about two years ago when he started posting about the week-long fast he was doing. Some of his readers wanted to do the same thing without realizing that fasting for 7 days can be very dangerous for some. He didn't delete my comment but answered that he wasn't suggesting anyone else do it, it was just his experiment. He doesn't seem to grasp the idea that he has a very big influence over his followers and as such, is somewhat responsible for the diets they follow, whether the diets are healthful for most people or not.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Marilyn, I remember you from there and elsewhere. The problem is Jimmy HAS to know his influence. He feeds off of people following him after all. So his disingenuous attempts to avoid any accountability are just that. I remember a teenager commenting on his blog when he was considering that fast about how they have fasted for weeks at a time. Did he at least counsel said teen to discuss this with their parents and family doc? Of course not, he responded with encouragement and validation.

      What he has been doing with LC is turning it into a joke. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not anti-LC, and I would like to see it take a legit place in treatment of obesity and various ailments. That won't happen with junk science and circus side shows and 85% fat "healthy" diets being promoted by Jimmy Moore.

      For all of the success stories out there, there are many more who were trapped in mediocrity until they moved past the lifestyle. When these people speak out (think Cheeseslave) they are trashed in the LC community. Heck, for all his phony courtesy to Paul Jaminet, he showed his true feelings when he took a jab at the "so called experts" promoting safe starches in one of his updates. I could go on, but I'll leave it at that out of respect to Regina.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous10:45 AM

      Thanks, Regina, for being the voice of wisdom! People like CarbSane are glommer onners and idiots who no one cares about. Sorry she's stinking up your page with her schlock. You don't deserve that. But I guess she thinks she's relevant. That one always cracks me up.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous4:16 PM

      carbsane is no different than Jimmy. One extreme to one side, the other the opposite. I think Carbsane has the hots for Jimmy myself.

      Delete
    4. CarbSane's posts are very relevant

      Delete
    5. Anonymous1:06 PM

      She'll tell everyone she's relevant all day long. Most of us know better. She's as much of a pv whore as the Jimmster.

      Delete
    6. yeh whatever, Anonymous!!

      Delete
    7. I think all anonymous comments should not be published!!

      Delete
    8. Since I do think differing POV is relevant, even when posted from those who wish to remain anonymous, I do publish all except those unnecessarily cruel or outright nasty; thus far in the various posts I've only deleted two that were way out of bounds.

      Delete
    9. Hi Regina, I agree about anonymity, and understand publishing these comments in the spirit of even-handedness. Either publish pretty much everything or moderate more stringently. It's your blog, your choice and that's that. However as a formerly anonymous blogger I would state that not all anonymity is the same. I went by a pseudonym (and a different one on Jimmy's forum for 2 years that I chose not to carry over to the blog) and carry it to this day as it is my "identity". There are a few impostors who comment as carbsanity and other related monikers that I can do nothing about. However when I post it is always through this Google ID or more recently the occasional comment using Twitter or FB ID. For better or worse, folks know who is making the comments and with whom they are conversing.

      This is not the case when there are a ton of Anonymous comments. These could be one person or 100 different people. It is easier to follow if at least a person posts under a singular pseudonym.

      Delete
    10. Thank you for your support Sue. I'm a glommer onner? Yeah, like I haven't been exposing this crap for years now? Sometimes ya just gotta laugh.

      Delete
    11. I do agree it's easier with singular pseudonyms, and I wish folks would at least adopt something using the Name/URL option instead of straight anonymous (hint, hint). I do have an IP logger in the background, so while some of the anon's are the same person (at least by IP), most aren't, but some too have returned to comment again later down the comment stream.

      I do think it would be much more helpful if those who wish to remain anon just use the Name/URL feature to remain anon and have their say without having to necessarily say who they really are.

      Delete
    12. Anonymous5:48 PM

      It's funny how Carbsane complains about people she perceives as bashing her when all she does is bash. Maybe if she wants people to have more respect for her, she could act a little less the bully herself? That advice is free, by the way.

      Delete
  40. "The comments here are all over the place." Maybe the reason why is that they don't come from a centrally planned Komment Kontrol, but from diverse individuals with diverse opinions?

    Regarding Jimmy Moore, I think perhaps that Jimmy's business really isn't weight loss at all. It's weight gain.

    He is like a boxer who trains for the fight. He goes through all sorts of torture rituals to prepare for the big event. After the event is over, he eats beer and cheesecake until the next bout.

    In Jimmy's case, the big event isn't a fight but the magic goal number. Which he hasn't ever hit, but never mind. The suckers keep coming back for more, more, more.

    The analogy isn't exact but it's good enough. Jimmy isn't truly interested in reaching a normal weight and maintaining it. He arranges his life so that he can binge. This is what he really wants to do. He lives for the period of hedonic compensatory binge-eating. That is his life.

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  41. Anonymous12:42 PM

    I find it mind-boggling (and a little sad) that the greater low carb community would let him get away with this - http://www.livinlowcarbmealplan.com/.

    First a book about cholesterol being written by a person with skyrocketing LDL, and now Jimkins... Sigh.

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  42. Anonymous10:22 AM

    I myself was curious about NK and bought a meter. I've eaten lowcarb for about a year and figured, like Jimmy, I was not really in ketosis anymore in my blood. I was very happy when I checked with the meter before I started because I was 1.2 on the meter doing what I was doing. So I didn't change anything. I usually eat about 120g of protein, so that's not a problem for me. My fat usually is about 68% of calories. I don't try to add more and it looks like I don't need to!

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  43. Anonymous12:28 PM

    gah! Jimmy isn't going to keep the weight off, so anyone who jumps on that life boat he's selling needs to remember, he always gains back.

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  44. Anonymous12:44 PM

    Is Jimmy Moore also posting how many calories he is eating on average? Why is producing ketone bodies @ a high rate such a big deal...he's simply using the additional fat he's ingesting on low carb. Diabetes and aging and starvation are also associated with higher-than-normal rates of fat oxidation and ketone body synthesis, right? Why is this good?

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  45. Anonymous4:15 PM

    LEAVE JIMMY ALONE!

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  46. Anonymous5:25 PM

    Jimmy's going to burn out what functional metabolism he does have if he keeps up the crap.

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  47. Plus comments that just attack Carb Sane are not relevant to the discussion and should not be published.

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  48. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Carbsane reaps what she sows.

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  49. Regina, I haven't yet read all of your articles on this, so forgive me if I missed this somewhere. What exactly is wrong with someone eating 85% fat?

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    1. The implication that nutritional ketosis requires 85% fat is what is inaccurate and no where in Phinney & Volek's books do we find recommendations for that level of fat intake. Also, by eating that high a level of fat, when unnecessary for the process, leaves one vulnerable to nutrient deficiencies if they're not careful, especially if protein is kept below requirements.

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    2. I just don't see where Jimmy implies that everyone has to eat 85% fat to lose weight. Admittedly, I haven't looked at his NK experiment in a few months, but when I did, he was reluctant to say exactly what he was eating because he wanted everyone to find their own way. My take is that he is very carb intolerant and therefore can only afford a few grams of carbs per day. He is a big guy and probably needs many more calories per day than I do (female, 5'3"). But because his absolute level for carbs is so low, his % of fat is higher than for most. So be it. He's found the way the works for him, it is up to us to find the way that works for each of us.

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  50. I haven't been following closely but I have the distinct impression that Jimmy has been saying that he only thinks HE needs to be at 85% fat. For whatever reasons that are particular to his body.
    Anyway, my big takeaway from all this is that maybe it IS a good idea to limit protein and increase fats. Probably not as much as Jimmy, but still.

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  51. Anonymous4:33 PM

    I am no fan of JM, but his latest podcast with Dr Dayspring is interesting. Dayspring is uncomfortable with the high LDL P numbers being reported by those on Nutty K. He recognizes the benefits of keto, but says those abnormal LDLP folks should consider meds ( I assume statins ) or reduce Saturated Fat. Nutty K peops might want to give this a listen, or risk being a statistic.
    I fully expect JM to ignore this advise and consider himself immune and double down on stupid. Hope I am wrong.

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  52. "eating that high a level of fat... ...leaves one vulnerable to nutrient deficiencies...."

    highly theoretical, wouldn't you say? After all, all we need to survive is fat and protein.

    "...especially if protein is kept below requirements"

    Also highly theoretical. Who's to say what that requirement is? People like T. Colin Campbell claim we only need a fraction of the amounts advised by most paleo/low carb experts. Me, I dunno who's right about that. Is there some definitive source or study that absolutely defines protein "requirements"?

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  53. My take is that percentages really don't matter. Jimmy is eating minimal protein to sustain his lean mass; he's exercising, he's building lean mass, that seems to be in balance. He's eating minimal carbs. He's eating enough fat to keep his appetite at bay, and it comes out at 85%. He's losing weight. Perhaps he could lose faster if he ate less fat, but then he runs the danger of going off plan entirely due to hunger - that seems counterproductive at best.

    I could probably eat the same amount of protein and carbs and because I'm much smaller could eat less fat, resulting in a lower percentage and have the same level of satiety. My fat % might be 70-75%, but really, who cares?

    As I recall, Jimmy was reluctant to even talk about what he was eating at first, till readers badgered him to tell them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Having read Art and Science of Low Carb Performance, it seems to me that Jimmy is following it well. Yes, he's on the low end of protein, but if he's not losing muscle mass, what's the harm? A basic tenet of all low carb eating plans is to find your personal balance - what you can tolerate and what you can't. Yes, Jimmy may be at an extreme point in the spectrum, but he's still a part of the low carb spectrum. Just because that is his sweet spot does not imply that is where the rest of us should be. And I don't hear him saying that is the case.

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  54. You don't need to eat fat at all to be in nutritional ketosis!

    I think a lot of people, including Jimmy, fail to realize that the 85% fat that Phinney mentions time to time is Phinney at maintenance.

    I've been doing low carb (definitely ketogenic the entire time) for over a year. My first 4 months saw a weightloss (mostly fat according to hydrostatic weighing) of about 30 lbs. According to hydrostatic, I'm 5'6", 12% body fat. However, DEXA says I'm around 22%... Not sure why the big discrepency but I've done hydrostatic twice with consistent results. Regardless, visually it looks like I have about 10 pounds to lose to get to my ideal visual appearance (look very cut!). That was followed by me changing nothing about the diet but stalling for 8 months. I followed everyones' advice to keep doing what I'm doing and eventually the stall will break. It didn't.

    So I decided to do a bit of critical thinking. If I've been eating around 1800 calories a day - 25 grams carbs, 100 grams protein, with the rest coming from fat (1300 cals or 145 grams of fat) and I haven't been losing weight... what would happen if I just cut out as much fat as possible?

    Later I found out this method is called a Protein Sparing Modified Fast, or Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss plan. I even found some quotes (which I don't have time to find again right now), of Phinney saying that to lose weight, people will need to figure out their constant carb and protein amounts and then eat a bit less fat. Their body will still see consume an 85% fat diet, but some of that fat will come from yourself, not oral load. Meaning, if 85% fat for me means 1300 calories, and I only eat 1000 calories of fat, my fat will still consume 1300, but 300 will come from my own fat stores.

    Anyways, around the same time I started this protein sparing modified fast, I started to test my blood ketones. Yeah, I jumped on the Jimmy N=1 bandwagon! But I decided to individualize my tests and test under slightly different circumstances. Jimmy has been eating a ton of fat thinking he needs to eat fat to stay in NK.

    I've been eating about 25 grams of carbs, 80-120 grams of protein, and as little fat as possible (usually falling between 20-50 grams of fat a day). Let me point out that that is LESS fat than what is considered LOW FAT.

    Yet every morning I wake up and test my ketones (for over 3 weeks now), and my B-OHB is between 1.7-2.2. And before you think the crash diet has been killing my muscle protein, it hasn't. I've been doing some weight lifting again and I (and my fiancee) can see a lot of visual change to my muscle size amd strength. Granted I feel a bit less satiated throughout the day and do crave the fat I used to gorge on, but over the last year of strict LC I've learned great self control.

    Oh and in the last 3 or so weeks of doing this PSMF, I've lost 4 pounds on the scale (measured every morning under the same conditions) while putting on noticeable muscle. I'm at my lowest weight ever. I'm planning another hydrostatic test and DEXA soon.




    But to wrap up, everyone eating more fat to stay in NK... at least in my experience, I think you are doing your weight loss is disservice. Cut out some fat (at least some, you don't have to go as low as me) and see if you stay in NK and lose weight/lose weight faster. After you lose the fat you want to lose, then add the dietary fat back in and shoot for that "85%" fat intake.

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  55. Hey Regina good to see you back, I just happened to stumble here after talking with someone who has an issue with MTHFR.

    Anyway, on the very rare occasion Jimmys diet rears his ugly head down under, so good to know this is here to point to as I refuse to follow anything to do with him as imo he just seems to follow what ever is the latest $$$ fad.

    I guess at least he's not encouraging people to starve themselves anymore!

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